I’m realizing how over engineered Claude’s solutions are. I have realized now just today that it’s best at just dding tiny updates to code. Not good at architecting anything new at all that has to work for longer than 5 days.
Mixed feelings because obviously studying for a degree implies maths and sciences which does qualify you as an engineer, but imo “software engineer” isn’t a real thing. You’re either a computer engineer or a code monkey.
IIRC you can’t actually use the title “Engineer” prefixed or not without having a P.Eng license here in Canada. Of course, that didn’t stop my previous American employers from giving me the title of Software Engineer but it’s not supposed to be allowed
Yeah, I’ve looked it up and this is definitely the case, I’ve also had both Canadian and American employers refer to my position this way continuously with no repercussions (I similarly have an engineering degree in another field and was an eit and am now in software).
It’s weird because if the provincial engineering societies were serious about enforcing their rules, it would take them ZERO effort to find thousands and thousands and thousands of violations through like a single LinkedIn search. The fact that they dont put in such a minimal amount of effort kind of signals they don’t care about the rule.
Which is completely stupid, you can perform engineering without having paid the order and it doesn’t feel like there’s any other word that explains the job quite as easily.
Looking up synonyms though it seems I could legally call myself a “software mastermind”, “software plotter” or “software captain”.
I do agree partially but I also get wanting “engineer” to be a protected term. I think software design is probably one more valid uses of the term but I think applying it to everything ain’t it (I.e. sanitation engineer).
Tbh I’m happy enough just having a Software Developer title
Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. “Software engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.
“Software Engineer” is a title that is licensed by professional engineering organizations in Canada. Would you acknowledge that it’s “a thing” in Canada?
idk about grue but imo that depends on the requirements of the title. If you need to be a real engineer capable of doing real engineering work to claim it then by all means.
If you need less than 14 math credits and only general ed science requirements, then no.
CAEB accredites Canadian university programs, including civil engineering programs, electrical engineering programs, and yes, software engineering programs. In addition, provincial engineering organizations such as PEO require that all professiomal engineers are employed as engineers in training (EIT) for a period of time, have passed an ethics exam, and are in good professional standing.
TL;DR: yes, officially recognized software engineers are real engineers in Canada.
During my computer engineering degree I was required to take enough math credits to earn a mathematics minor, and I learned the physics of transistors at a quantum level as part of the core curriculum. Do you think I can call myself an engineer, or should I limit it to just - what was the wording you used - oh yeah, syntax ape?
I only consider Engineering to be the application of math and science to plan complex systems or structures.
If a person is doing that as a programmer then they have to already understand computer architecture to a bare minimum of how memory works physically, processor functionality, and discreet mathematics: which makes them a computer engineer.
If a person completely lacks understanding of math or physics behind the machines they code for then I don’t care how complicated their derivative work is: it is not engineering. Much like how painting is not engineering nor is balancing a stack of rocks.
Oh, boooo. Boooo! Come on, you were lining up a classic crowd favorite, the “Real Engineers understand the fundamentals” attack, then they hit you with the ol’ “Some programming courses teach the fundamentals” and you come back with this? No pivot to credentialing, no tirade about how software is all virtual so it’s not the same as building something with real materials, no grand declaration about how real engineers have to take their jobs seriously because lives are at stake? Just “no it’s programming not engineering they’re different”? Weak.
Back in my day we used to argue about whether or not software engineering is real engineering with some gumption.
Engineering is the application of math and science to plan complex systems and structures
Computer science teaches math and science to plan complex systems and structures
But you believe that computer science prepares students for “programming”, not engineering, so they aren’t engineers. Despite it being about the application of math and science to design complex systems and structures (engineering) and despite the fact that everyone else calls this profession software engineering and you call it programming. And you don’t think you have a bias?
It’s possible to learn how to do some limited engineering while working towards a comp sci degree but it doesn’t magically turn every task you perform into engineering. Programming isn’t engineering.
So engineering is not what you said you believe it is, you actually believe it’s what you said it is except software engineers because you’re a condescending gatekeeper. Software engineering is different from programming.
What is it that you think I said it was? Because I pretty clearly outlined how memorizing syntax, calling functions, and gradeschool algebra are not engineering.
Do… Do you think software on its own needs no engineering?
If I say please build me a webshop from scratch, do I need a “computer engineer” which presumingly includes hardware knowledge by your distinction? Probably not. Is a code monkey going to build me the website? Also probably not.
So somewhere inbetween the two, you probably need a position that can engineer complex pieces of computer code, along with its design and architecture - we could even call it something short, like a software engineer or something
I can tell you have a bachelor’s of engineering. Not because I think you’re being elitist. But because you haven’t yet figured out that words are fluid and don’t follow strict rules like systems do.
English is hard.
I have a B.E. as well. It took me years to word good.
You’re on Lemmy so you’d be better off learning Mandarin or Russian.
Words which indicate a minimun amount of trained and proven competence or authority, such as Doctor or Police Lieutenant, are not things you can just claim willy nilly.
TBH it’s not easy to get 98 people to engage with a bottom of the list comment so clearly some part of it is botted, which tracks because I’m pissing off sloppers and slopper admins every time I visit this instance.
The default sorting is hot - which does not show your comment at the bottom of the list. It’s not a conspiracy, you just said something incredibly naive about a field that is over represented on lemmy.
An old professor of mine made the half-joke that anything with ‘science’ in its name isn’t really science. He was a computer science professor.
I suppose he meant that computer science is closer to applied science aka. engineering than ‘real’ science like maths and physics, and all their subcategories.
Anyway… In the end everyone that graduated studying computer science got a Bachelor/Masters degree of science, not engineering… And it doesn’t matter anyway…
You’re right, we should let people who know HTML print out their own degrees equivalent to a 6 year discipline with specific application of math and science. /sarcasm
I’ve been involved in math, software and hardware. The core function is the same: finding solutions to problems. Pedantically gatekeeping, I have little knowledge of engines. I’m grateful that usage is antiquated.
Pretty “hail corporate” response. I admit the first time I saw the word being on a Google jib listing over a decade ago might be part of my strong opposition.
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Remember that you are also collecting the responsibility of 10 and the pay of 1.
Not even. Your job isn’t to protect prod, it’s to take the blame when prod goes down.
of they expect you to write or go through 1000s of lines of code in a single day. your whole job isn’t programming, is to be the scapegoat.
Ah the ol please
I’m realizing how over engineered Claude’s solutions are. I have realized now just today that it’s best at just dding tiny updates to code. Not good at architecting anything new at all that has to work for longer than 5 days.
Shift + Tab + Fuck it.
🫠 too real
Mixed feelings because obviously studying for a degree implies maths and sciences which does qualify you as an engineer, but imo “software engineer” isn’t a real thing. You’re either a computer engineer or a code monkey.
“Software engineer” will be a thing when it’s licensed by the state. Until then, we’re all just glorified cowboy-coders with no accountability.
(Speaking as computer programmer with an EIT in a different field.)
IIRC you can’t actually use the title “Engineer” prefixed or not without having a P.Eng license here in Canada. Of course, that didn’t stop my previous American employers from giving me the title of Software Engineer but it’s not supposed to be allowed
Yeah, I’ve looked it up and this is definitely the case, I’ve also had both Canadian and American employers refer to my position this way continuously with no repercussions (I similarly have an engineering degree in another field and was an eit and am now in software).
It’s weird because if the provincial engineering societies were serious about enforcing their rules, it would take them ZERO effort to find thousands and thousands and thousands of violations through like a single LinkedIn search. The fact that they dont put in such a minimal amount of effort kind of signals they don’t care about the rule.
Which is completely stupid, you can perform engineering without having paid the order and it doesn’t feel like there’s any other word that explains the job quite as easily.
Looking up synonyms though it seems I could legally call myself a “software mastermind”, “software plotter” or “software captain”.
I do agree partially but I also get wanting “engineer” to be a protected term. I think software design is probably one more valid uses of the term but I think applying it to everything ain’t it (I.e. sanitation engineer).
Tbh I’m happy enough just having a Software Developer title
I mean it’s fine, but development is only one part of engineering, which is why I don’t like the term.
That’s fair… lately I’ve been more of a Kubernetes configurator than a developer so I get you
Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. “Software engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.
“Software Engineer” is a title that is licensed by professional engineering organizations in Canada. Would you acknowledge that it’s “a thing” in Canada?
idk about grue but imo that depends on the requirements of the title. If you need to be a real engineer capable of doing real engineering work to claim it then by all means.
If you need less than 14 math credits and only general ed science requirements, then no.
CAEB accredites Canadian university programs, including civil engineering programs, electrical engineering programs, and yes, software engineering programs. In addition, provincial engineering organizations such as PEO require that all professiomal engineers are employed as engineers in training (EIT) for a period of time, have passed an ethics exam, and are in good professional standing.
TL;DR: yes, officially recognized software engineers are real engineers in Canada.
Alright but it feels like you didn’t really touch on my personal requirements and just appealed to authority.
During my computer engineering degree I was required to take enough math credits to earn a mathematics minor, and I learned the physics of transistors at a quantum level as part of the core curriculum. Do you think I can call myself an engineer, or should I limit it to just - what was the wording you used - oh yeah, syntax ape?
It’s not a real thing because it’s virtual? Or not being regulated makes it not a real thing?
I only consider Engineering to be the application of math and science to plan complex systems or structures.
If a person is doing that as a programmer then they have to already understand computer architecture to a bare minimum of how memory works physically, processor functionality, and discreet mathematics: which makes them a computer engineer.
If a person completely lacks understanding of math or physics behind the machines they code for then I don’t care how complicated their derivative work is: it is not engineering. Much like how painting is not engineering nor is balancing a stack of rocks.
any computer science course teaches those things
To prepare the student for programming not for engineering.
Oh, boooo. Boooo! Come on, you were lining up a classic crowd favorite, the “Real Engineers understand the fundamentals” attack, then they hit you with the ol’ “Some programming courses teach the fundamentals” and you come back with this? No pivot to credentialing, no tirade about how software is all virtual so it’s not the same as building something with real materials, no grand declaration about how real engineers have to take their jobs seriously because lives are at stake? Just “no it’s programming not engineering they’re different”? Weak.
Back in my day we used to argue about whether or not software engineering is real engineering with some gumption.
Engineers are rarely menial labourers so idk what you mean by programming being virtual. Like 98% of engineering work is planning diagrams.
My argument has always been that the work is different between a syntax ape and an engineer.
So you believe that
But you believe that computer science prepares students for “programming”, not engineering, so they aren’t engineers. Despite it being about the application of math and science to design complex systems and structures (engineering) and despite the fact that everyone else calls this profession software engineering and you call it programming. And you don’t think you have a bias?
It’s possible to learn how to do some limited engineering while working towards a comp sci degree but it doesn’t magically turn every task you perform into engineering. Programming isn’t engineering.
So engineering is not what you said you believe it is, you actually believe it’s what you said it is except software engineers because you’re a condescending gatekeeper. Software engineering is different from programming.
What is it that you think I said it was? Because I pretty clearly outlined how memorizing syntax, calling functions, and gradeschool algebra are not engineering.
Your opinion is bad then. And I realize the irony of saying that with my username.
maybe on krypton code monkeys are licensed and everyone else is just doing engineering
Do… Do you think software on its own needs no engineering?
If I say please build me a webshop from scratch, do I need a “computer engineer” which presumingly includes hardware knowledge by your distinction? Probably not. Is a code monkey going to build me the website? Also probably not.
So somewhere inbetween the two, you probably need a position that can engineer complex pieces of computer code, along with its design and architecture - we could even call it something short, like a software engineer or something
Programmer
A programmer builds the software. An engineer designs it.
Lmao ok pal
That explains why all the programmers carry around hammers. You know. To help them type in the word CMake.
I’m not sure what you mean about hammers, but I mean build as in implementation, not build as in compile.
This guy is just lost. Everybody knows engineers drive trains.
I can tell you have a bachelor’s of engineering. Not because I think you’re being elitist. But because you haven’t yet figured out that words are fluid and don’t follow strict rules like systems do.
English is hard.
I have a B.E. as well. It took me years to word good.
You’re on Lemmy so you’d be better off learning Mandarin or Russian.
Words which indicate a minimun amount of trained and proven competence or authority, such as Doctor or Police Lieutenant, are not things you can just claim willy nilly.
Dude, an Engineer drives a fucking train
I can respect that but you need to propose a new term for structural and electrical engineers to replace it if that’s where we draw the line.
I get your point but I’m not going to pull out my whole resume when, at the end of the day, I write software for a living.
Programmer is shorter and more honest than software engineer, tho
True. It doesn’t include my (legally recognised) title, however
Programmers and Software Engineers are different things, tho
Programmers and Engineers are different things, tho
Yes. But software engineers are engineers. Not all programmers are software engineers.
Not all software engineers are engineers and furthermore software isn’t an engineering discipline to begin with.
You should post this to UnpopularOpinions.
TBH it’s not easy to get 98 people to engage with a bottom of the list comment so clearly some part of it is botted, which tracks because I’m pissing off sloppers and slopper admins every time I visit this instance.
The default sorting is hot - which does not show your comment at the bottom of the list. It’s not a conspiracy, you just said something incredibly naive about a field that is over represented on lemmy.
I’m not on Lemmy. Lemmy is maintained by people who deny trans rights and fight for Russia.
Gosh, did I say you were?
yes
I’m assuming you’ve never experienced the world of safety critical software development like the medical and aerospace industries.
An engineer can code but a programmer is not an engineer. I have actually, btw, though not as a programmer but closely with them.
This is very much a US specific thing
An old professor of mine made the half-joke that anything with ‘science’ in its name isn’t really science. He was a computer science professor.
I suppose he meant that computer science is closer to applied science aka. engineering than ‘real’ science like maths and physics, and all their subcategories.
Anyway… In the end everyone that graduated studying computer science got a Bachelor/Masters degree of science, not engineering… And it doesn’t matter anyway…
You’re right, we should let people who know HTML print out their own degrees equivalent to a 6 year discipline with specific application of math and science. /sarcasm
It matters.
i think the word “engineer” has something to do with the word “ingenuity” … now ask yourself, how much creative thinking do you need as a coder?
Depends on the task, somewhere between next to none and actual engineering.
I’ve been involved in math, software and hardware. The core function is the same: finding solutions to problems. Pedantically gatekeeping, I have little knowledge of engines. I’m grateful that usage is antiquated.
The industry has landed on the term. Nothing can be done about it regardless of anyone’s opinion for or against.
Pretty “hail corporate” response. I admit the first time I saw the word being on a Google jib listing over a decade ago might be part of my strong opposition.
Wait, are you a Someordinarygamer fan?
no