The Iran War Is Unfathomably Depraved

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https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/the-iran-war-is-unfathomably-depraved

In the first hours of the U.S.-Israeli war against Iran, up to 175 young children and school staff were blown to pieces at an elementary school. Others were maimed and burned, and will be suffering from their injuries for the rest of their lives. Even any comparatively fortunate ones with minimal injuries will surely experience permanent trauma from having witnessed something so horrific. Witnesses describe scenes of unfathomable horror, with limbs and blood strewn across classrooms. “People were pulling out children’s arms and legs. People were pulling out severed heads,” said a woman whose child was killed. The Guardian cites verified videos that show “children’s bodies lying partly buried under the debris":

In one video, a very small child’s severed arm is pulled from the rubble. Colourful backpacks covered with blood and concrete dust sit among the ruins. One girl wears a green dress with gingham patches on her pockets and the collar, her form partly obscured by a black body bag. Screams can be heard in the background.

Drop Site News spoke to the father of a six-year-old girl, Sara Shariatmadar, who was killed in the attack. “I cannot understand how a place where innocent children learn can be bombed like this,” he said. “We are talking about small children who knew nothing of politics or wars. And yet they are the ones paying the highest price.”

The United States and Israel have not denied responsibility for the attack, although it is still unclear which country fired the missile. The U.S. said that it does not “target” schools, which does not mean that it does not bomb them. ("We take these reports seriously,” a spokesman said.) Israel’s spokesperson said the government was not “aware” of such an attack, which does not mean its military did not carry one out. Photos supposedly showing that a misfired Iranian missile caused it were debunked, although they spread widely online among Americans and Israelis desperate to believe that only the Bad Guys do things like this.

Domestic coverage of this horrible crime against humanity has been muted. U.S. media has a policy of not showing gruesome images of violence—the Guardian explicitly stated that it was concealing the photos and videos it had “due to their graphic nature.” As a result, war is always sanitized, so that Americans can read that 150+ schoolgirls were killed without having to confront the full horror of what it means for their country to drive a missile into a crowded school in the middle of the day. (Saturday is a school day in Iran, a fact that the U.S. government would easily have been able to know when deciding how to time its attacks, but Secretary of War Pete Hegseth has been open about the fact that he regards such niceties as rules of engagement and international law as meddlesome hindrances that can be ignored, lambasting those who “wring their hands and clutch their pearls, hemming and hawing about the use of force.")

I suspect that this attack is also difficult for U.S. media to cover because the basic facts of the situation are so twisted, so depraved, so evil, that they shatter the comforting narrative that the U.S. has the moral high ground over the Ayatollah. In fact, the U.S. government is on the moral level of the Sandy Hook school shooter, a fact that even president Trump’s critics may have a hard time fully accepting.

And this was not the only massacre carried out by the U.S. and Israel in a war that has been going on just a few days. The Human Rights Activists News Agency reports that there have already been over 1,000 civilian deaths in Iran, including 181 children under the age of ten, with thousands more civilians injured. Drop Site reports on the nauseating scene in a middle-class Tehran neighborhood following a “double tap” strike (dropping one bomb first, and then dropping another on the survivors and emergency responders, a favorite war crime of the U.S. and Israel). Warning, the following description is extremely graphic and may undermine any love you may have for your country:

Videos of the immediate aftermath of the attack showed several individuals dead and wounded as well as massive destruction on the street outside. In Cafe Ahla, next to the square, blood and debris soaked the floors. Several patrons who had been sitting there when the attack struck could be seen dead on the floor or with their mutilated bodies still sprawled across their seats. “We were sitting here around 8:00-8:30 p.m. and suddenly there was the noise and explosion. We got up and a few people ran away. We turned around to get our belongings and we saw that blood was spraying everywhere. Someone’s hand had fallen on the floor, a head had fallen on the floor,” said Shahin, a witness who had been at the cafe and asked to be identified by first name only. “There were scalps torn off, hands severed, a few people were laying here all cut up and two people were martyred."

I will get to the many ways in which the Iran war is illegal, making us less safe, founded on lies, strategically insane, unbelievably costly, etc. But let us dwell for a moment on what we are doing to these people. The right-wing Telegraph newspaper reports that in Tehran, “millions of civilians are trapped under relentless bombardment as food and medical supplies dwindle and the death toll mounts,” and the city is an “’apocalypse’ of hospitals in flames and children buried beneath rubble.” The paper records a total humanitarian disaster, with sick people lacking medicine, children going hungry, diabetics running out of insulin, and the repeated bombing of residential areas. While Americans pat themselves on the back for assassinating Iran’s repressive head of state, everyday Iranians (even those with little love for their theocratic government) are facing the prospect of being killed at any moment, or watching their children be ripped to pieces. I realize that in the U.S., the devaluation of Middle Eastern lives means that little Iranian girls will receive a fraction of the compassion and concern that has arisen around, say, Nancy Guthrie. But if we apply our morality consistently, I cannot see how we can be anything other than completely revolted by the carnage our president is choosing to inflict (and will apparently soon be further escalating, according to Marco Rubio, who is promising an increased use of force to come, and Pete Hegseth, who is salivating about delivering "death and destruction all day long").

We are all complicit. If you are an American, you paid your government to murder those little girls and those Tehran cafe-goers. Money was withdrawn from your paycheck in the form of federal income taxes. If the attack was conducted with a Tomahawk missile (of which 400 were fired in 72 hours), that money would have been paid to the RTX Corporation (formerly Raytheon). Each missile fired costs somewhere between $1.3 million and $2.2 million, of which approximately $200,000 would be pure profit. Thus the killing of the Iranian schoolgirls, which left their bloody backpacks and tiny severed limbs scattered across classroom floors, transferred hundreds of thousands of dollars from us (the American taxpayers) into RTX’s bank accounts. It also boosted the GDP. And the stock market.

Stock price of RTX (formerly Raytheon)

It is hard for me to write about this war, because I am so sickened every time I contemplate the full dark reality of the country I live in. I realize that not only are there people who will drop a bomb on a school without losing a wink of sleep, but there are people who get rich when we bomb schools, who have a direct financial stake in ensuring we keep dropping as many bombs as possible. (And that’s just the weapons companies. Others are getting rich from betting on the atrocities on prediction markets.) The fact that many Congressional Democrats implicitly or explicitly supported this war (whether by outright goading Trump into it, as Chuck Schumer did, dragging their feet on opposing it, or raising meek procedural objections) further adds to my disgust. Many Democrats apparently declined to try to stop the war, reasoning that if it achieved U.S. foreign policy goals it would be embarrassing to have opposed it, but if it went south Trump would own it anyway. When I open the New York Times op-ed page, and I find resident foreign policy guru Thomas Friedman cautioning against adopting any "black and white narrative" about what goes on in “a complicated, kaleidoscopic region,” I want to vomit. The moment calls for moral clarity: our country is engaged in a mass murder campaign. It must be stopped. It is depressing to see so many debates around strategic end-goals, congressional authorization, or the consistency of the justifications. They take us away from the basic fact that our president, with the blessing of his party and many members of the so-called opposition, is gruesomely murdering children by the dozen. Every day this continues, we are paying our government to commit some of the worst crimes humans are capable of.


Of course, the war is also based on a pack of lies. The Trump administration can’t even get its story straight on why the war is being waged and has produced no justification beyond vague invocations of National Security. (Trump says Iran was a “bad seed.") Some Republicans won’t even admit that this is a war. (Perhaps they might want to borrow a phrase from Vladimir Putin: “special military operation.") House Speaker Mike Johnson is trying to have it both ways, saying that while the Iranians "have declared war on us," we’re "not at war right now." Others are tying themselves in pretzels trying to explain how this differs from the “regime change” wars that Trump has so vocally opposed. (Pete Hegseth: “This is not a so-called ‘regime change war.’ But the regime sure did change.") Sometimes there are direct self-contradictions within a single sentence, as with Tom Cotton declaring that “Iran has been an imminent threat to the United States for 47 years.” This was too much for right-wing commentator Matt Walsh, who accused Republicans of "gaslighting" for suddenly discovering that Iran has been waging a half-century of war against the U.S. Even leading Iraq war hawk Bill Kristol is confused about the reasoning behind the war, saying there is “no coherent rationale.” (Of course, Kristol’s own favorite Middle East war was equally illegitimate, but that’s an argument for another day.)

Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the U.S. attacked because it knew Israel was going to attack, and needed to defend itself against the inevitable Iranian retaliation for Israel’s attack—perhaps the most tortured and unpersuasive case for self-defense ever made. Perhaps because this seemed like an admission that Israeli choices dictate U.S. policy, Trump subsequently denied that Israeli decision-making had anything to do with the attack, although it’s clear that Benjamin Netanyahu lobbied heavily for this, as he has been salivating at the prospect of a major war with Iran for decades, and has been scheming for a way to get the U.S. involved.

MOORE-2

The idea that Iran was a threat to the United States was always laughable. U.S. intelligence has consistently assessed that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon. The Trump administration itself declared that it had destroyed Iran’s nuclear program with last year’s bombings. Iran has in fact consistently shown itself very reluctant to engage in military confrontation with the U.S., often carefully limiting its retaliation after U.S. provocations. To the extent that Iran did want to become a nuclear threshold state, with at least the capacity to pursue a weapons program if it wanted to, credible analysts believe that Iran mainly wanted an insurance policy against potential U.S. and Israeli attacks. North Korea has shown that the possession of nuclear weapons is enough to make the U.S. think twice about forcible regime change, and there is a good argument that it would have been rational for Iran to pursue nuclear weapons for the sake of its own self-protection. As Israeli military historian Martin Van Creveld observed, the world “witnessed how the United States attacked Iraq for, as it turned out, no reason at all. Had the Iranians not tried to build nuclear weapons, they would be crazy.” (Van Creveld is wrong that Iraq was attacked for “no reason,” however. It was attacked for the same reason Iran is being attacked: the establishment of U.S.-Israeli dominance over the Middle East.) While U.S. commentators often talk as if Iran would pursue nuclear weapons mainly in order to destroy the U.S. or Israel (which would, of course, be suicidal given both countries’ superior nuclear forces), there’s no evidence that Iran would want nuclear weapons for any reason beyond deterring potential external attacks. (A fear that recent events have proven to be well-founded.)

In fact, the entire prevailing narrative about Iran is completely backwards. It’s the U.S. that has been a threat to Iran, not the other way around. It was the United States and Britain that overthrew Iran’s legitimately elected leader, Mohammad Mosaddegh, in 1953. (The New York Times was elated by the coup, commenting that “underdeveloped countries with rich resources now have an object lesson in the heavy cost that must be paid by one of their number which goes berserk with fanatical nationalism.") Since 1979, when the Iranians ousted the dictator (the Shah) that the U.S. had helped install and maintain in power, the U.S. has had a virtually unremittingly hostile attitude toward Iran. This is not because of the government’s (very real) human rights abuses, since the U.S. is happy to support human rights abusing states that are pliant and servile (see, e.g., Saudi Arabia and Egypt). But Iran is viewed as a threat to U.S. dominance in the Middle East. Thus, in the 1980s, the U.S. supported Saddam Hussein as he waged a ruthless war of aggression against Iran, killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians including with chemical weapons. (The U.S. concealed evidence of Hussein’s chemical weapon use from the UN, because it wanted him to go on killing Iranians.) More recently, the U.S. and Israel have tried to destabilize the country through devastating cyberattacks, economy-wrecking sanctions, and assassinations. The sanctions have been explicitly aimed at harming civilians, with Mike Pompeo boasting in 2019 that “things are much worse for the Iranian people” thanks to sanctions and hoping that their suffering would lead them to overthrow their government.

Importantly, while U.S. policymakers in both the Republican and Democratic parties constantly affirm that “Iran must not be allowed to have nuclear weapons,” they rarely state their implicit corollary to this proposition, which is that Israel must be allowed to have nuclear weapons. As it happens, Iran actually agrees that it shouldn’t be allowed to have nukes, and has long supported turning the entire Middle East into an official nuclear weapons free zone, much as Africa and Latin America have done. The problem is that the U.S. and Israel demand a double standard, with Israel refusing to contemplate giving up its nuclear weapons. The entire nuclear disagreement, then, is not about whether Iran should have nuclear weapons, but about whether Iran should hold itself to a different standard to Israel. (Amusingly, Chuck Schumer recently accidentally declared that “no one wants a nuclear Israel,” and had to correct himself, because he does want a nuclear Israel.)

Anyone who values human life should treat war as an absolute last resort, to be engaged in only once every diplomatic option has been exhausted. In this case, it was the Trump administration that sabotaged diplomacy. First, even though asking Iran not to pursue nuclear weapons means imposing an unfair double standard that imperils Iran’s national security, Iran had agreed under the 2015 Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action to severely constrain its development of nuclear technology, and agreed to a detailed monitoring and compliance regime. It was confirmed to be adhering to that agreement until Donald Trump ripped it up in 2018, subsequently criticizing Iran for failing to adhere to the agreement that he himself had destroyed. Joe Biden declined to pursue the revival of that agreement, even though Iran signaled that it was open to it. But to this day, Iran has shown that it is willing to consider even highly unfavorable agreements in order to avoid war—it has never shown any sign of launching an unprovoked strike, only deploying military action in response to violence by others, such as an Israeli attack on its embassy or the assassination of its allies’ leaders.

Iran has long wanted to keep a war with the U.S. from breaking out, which is why its responses to U.S. and Israeli attacks have previously been notably measured and cautious. (This time around, Iran reasons that unless it inflicts major damage, it will be perceived as weak and attacked further, since previous restraint only encouraged the U.S. and Israel to press their advantage.) Diplomatic talks between the U.S. and Iran were ongoing, and Oman, mediating talks, saw “the most promising diplomatic opening in years” and thought “diplomacy was producing tangible results and that a negotiated settlement was imminent.” The U.S. and Israel decided to sabotage diplomacy and assassinate the Iranian head of state, possibly because they felt they just couldn’t forgo the opportunity to kill as many high-ranking Iranians as possible in one fell swoop. (They killed so many Iranian government officials that Donald Trump admitted the U.S. had killed all of the people who had been considered likely candidates to take Khamenei’s place.) Iran professed itself baffled as to why the U.S. attacked. “I do not know why the U.S. administration insists on beginning a negotiation with Iran and then attacking Iran in the middle of talks," said the country’s foreign minister. He told NBC: “We were able to address serious questions related to Iran’s nuclear program. We obviously have differences, but we resolved some of those differences, and we decided to continue in order to resolve the rest of [the] questions.”

5-Dollars-News-Briefing-Ad-2025

Because mass civilian casualties are a predictable consequence of intense airstrikes, to choose to unnecessarily end diplomatic engagement and start bombing is unconscionable depravity. But it’s clear that the Trump administration didn’t really care whether Iran was genuinely willing to engage in diplomacy, because Trump’s position is that Iran should simply do what we say, period. There is nothing to negotiate, because for Trump, the only choice is whether a country is willing to comply with U.S. demands, or whether we will have to use force to ensure their compliance.

I haven’t even gotten to the illegality of the war. Leaving aside the ridiculous Republican denials that this is a war (if a country assassinated our head of state and bombed our cities, would anyone doubt that they were waging war?), it’s plain that all of this is unconstitutional. The Constitution vests the power to declare war in Congress, not the president. Congress didn’t declare war, therefore the war is illegal. Case closed. I know presidents have stretched their powers as far as possible (Obama’s drone strikes, etc.) but if a president has the power to wage a relentless bombing and assassination campaign without Congressional approval, the Constitution simply ceases to mean anything. Congress has plainly failed in its responsibility to ensure that Trump complies with the Constitution, but the failure of our politicians to enforce the law doesn’t change what it says.

Of course, it virtually goes without saying that the war violates international law. The UN Charter prohibits the use of force (or even the threat of force) except in response to an armed attack. Iran had not attacked the U.S., nor was there any evidence Iran was going to attack the U.S. Propagandists assert that Iran (and its “proxies") have killed “hundreds” of Americans over the years, but they decline to specify who these Americans are or discuss the Iranians killed by the U.S. and our own “proxies.” There’s no real point discussing international law, because Trump has made it clear he simply doesn’t care about it, saying he doesn’t need it and is unconstrained by it. Unfortunately, other countries have been just as pathetically weak as members of the U.S. Congress, with countries like Britain and France issuing statements that were de facto supportive of the assassination of a foreign head of state. (Canada issued a supportive statement and then appeared to regret it after noticing that letting the U.S. and Israel tear up the last vestiges of international law might be unwise.) Germany’s chancellor has even made the stunning statement that Iran shouldn’t be protected by international law, waving away the obvious illegality of the attacks by saying that “now is not the time to lecture our partners and allies.” The killing of a head of state is a major crime, the normalization of which would open a horrible Pandora’s box of lawless state action, and the world should be unified in condemning U.S.-Israeli lawlessness, but even among the Arab states there is a reluctance to antagonize the U.S.

None of the long-term consequences of this war will be good. The Trump administration does not appear to have any kind of strategic plan for what will happen next in Iran. (Lindsey Graham says it’s “not [Trump’s] job” to have a plan for what happens to the country’s government next.) We could see the country’s collapse into civil war, Libya-style. (Obama adviser Ben Rhodes recently admitted that Obama’s decision to topple Libya’s dictator without a plan for the country was a major error.) We could simply see the hard-line theocrats be replaced by more hard-line theocrats who are more convinced than ever that there can be no negotiating with the U.S., that the only language this country understands is force, and that the best thing for Iran’s safety would be for it to obtain a nuclear weapon as quickly as possible. What we are unlikely to see is a pro-American government emerging, and this war puts Americans everywhere in considerable danger. (Ask yourself: if what happened to Sara Shariatmadar happened to someone you love, would you see the country that carried out the bombing as a liberator? Or would you want revenge?) Although plenty of Iranians are justly celebrating the end of the Ayatollah’s rule, like the Iraqis who celebrated in 2003, they will soon find out that the U.S. has no interest in their well-being, and will happily watch their country slide into civil war if this serves America’s perceived “national security” interest.

Six Americans have already died in addition to the 1,000 Iranians. Because this is a war of choice, totally unnecessary and unjustifiable, their blood is on Donald Trump’s hands, and he (as well as Congress) should be treated no differently than we would treat someone who murdered these Americans with their bare hands. But the costs to this country are only just beginning. Of course, if you’re an RTX shareholder this may be a bonanza, but the rest of us are likely to see major economic disruption, in addition to all the resources that are put into the production of weapons. Eisenhower famously tried to warn Americans that war spending is an act of “theft” from the public, because it’s money not spent on schools and hospitals, and the “opportunity cost” is therefore enormous. But Eisenhower’s warning has largely been ignored.

Worse, as Abby Martin notes in the terrifying and important new film *Earth’s Greatest Enemy*, military action has catastrophic climate consequences, since the U.S. war machine is the world’s biggest polluter and the carbon emissions of our vast, brutal empire are driving us toward ever-worsening climate catastrophe. Unfortunately, that’s just fine with some in the administration and the military—terrifying recent reporting suggests that some evangelical Christian officers are celebrating the war as hastening the apocalypse, claiming Trump was “anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to Earth.” These people would sacrifice the rest of us to the inferno to fulfill their delusional prophecies.

Of course, the war reveals that Trump and his coterie were complete frauds when they pledged to keep the U.S. out of senseless Middle East wars. Trump fooled a lot of people with this stuff, although hopefully their illusions will now be hard to maintain. (Former hardcore MAGA types like Alex Jones and Nick Fuentes are now admitting they were duped.) If there is one silver lining here, amid all of the horror, it is that because this war is deeply unpopular and Trump has no idea how to deal with its consequences, perhaps we will finally see the MAGA movement collapse politically. Trump’s approval rating was already in the toilet, and while I sadly have no illusions that public opinion will be especially moved by the bombing of a school, when the fallout in cost, lives, and global chaos begins to come home, perhaps Americans will turn once and for good against their warmongering president.

But it is hard for me to think hopefully right now, as I see pictures of the remnants of former schoolchildren, schoolchildren whose lives were brutally extinguished with the help of my tax dollars. All I can feel is horror and rage at the sociopaths willing to do such things, who claim to want peace while ensuring that humanity will be consigned to a future of endless, senseless conflict.

PHOTO: Graves being dug for the elementary school girls killed in the bombing of the Minab school. Iran Foreign Ministry.


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Photos supposedly showing that a misfired Iranian missile caused it were debunked, although they spread widely online among Americans and Israelis desperate to believe that only the Bad Guys do things like this.

I wholeheartedly believe that only the bad guys do things like this. America (and by extension Israel) has a storied history of being the bad guy, despite so much propaganda to the contrary.


a must read! Very good article


Yeah well, the media loves it, so we will keep getting breathless accounts of explosions.


I visited some insane asylums that made more sense than this comment section.

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that chart in the article showing how Raytheon’s stock price jumped up right after we learned about that girl’s school was bombed is just so sickening

I’ve been incredibly frustrated to hear and read articles that boil down to “We bombed another country again, here’s what it’s doing to stock prices”.



Perhaps one of the most pointless wars in recent memory.

Most the the recent pointless wars all have one thing in common.

Religion + authoritarianism

And dat black, sticky-icky!




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[deleted]
edited depth: 2

All wars are pointless.

Fuck no, some wars are entirely needed like the haitian revolution, or really any war fought against colonisation… Imagine if the chinese people hadn’t fought against imperialism, or the russian people against tsarism

by
[deleted]
edited depth: 4

It’s the Haitian revolution, not the Haitian war. Rising against your masters isn’t waging war, and fuck the language that conflates those two things. Defending yourself from invaders isn’t waging war. The invaders are the ones waging war, and thus war is pointless.

If raising an army and establishing a nation to fight another army defending it’s nation is not what war is then I don’t know what your definition is

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[deleted]
depth: 6

What event are you referring to?

really any war fought against colonisation… Imagine if the chinese people hadn’t fought against imperialism, or the russian people against tsarism







A pointless war is a war with no goals. All wars has goals. This one is sbout creating a failed state for the usa to conquest easier the ressources and for israel to expand colonization



But it’s what Americans Israel wants!

Queen Ghislaine wants!



While piece leads with depravity of school attack, and I’d add hospitals and leadership assassination, understand the geopolitics that the US is ruled by Israel first mandate, and Israel wants only destruction. Not a surrender and peace. Just as a nuclear deal with Iran would have entitled it to an opinion on Israel actions. Cruelty and illegality is the insurance to guarantee a unified angry Iran who’se only choice is to fight back. This is 100% the plan, and all idiocy of not understanding a plan is idiocy looking at the US to promote some humanist/liberal peace outcome instead of serving Israel’s demonism.

All US allies have their political capital and media as atlanticist/zionist supremacist propagandizers. As such, they are more likely to equivocate Iran’s self defense actions instead of strong condemnation of Zionist demonism, and threatening of rupturing of ties with Zionist allies to motivate a quick ceasefire. Waiting for Atlanticist/Zionist supremacist media to help sell demonism to the people of US colonies, is simply gaslighting concerns about demonic evil that will be applied to them all directly in the future.

Wtf is “demonism”?

while a specific demarcation line between human selfishness and demonism is fluid within personal conscience, most experts might agree that wanton mass murder and destruction for purposes of facilitating less opposition to future mass murder and destruction for wanton theft of the land of the murdered, can cross the lines of civilized human-considerate policy discussions, such that a demonic label is unanimously appropriate.

The kinds of atrocities you describe are violent imperialist and colonial policies. The word “demonic” is dehumanizing religious language used by nutjobs, bible-thumpers and MAGAts. It is especially problematic when used to describe a jewish institution (even if that institution is a genocidal apartheid state), due to the long tradition of antisemitism in Canada (we are both users at lemmy.ca I see) and the west in general.

Religious supremacism is used to justify the wanton murder and destruction to steal lands. Just because Zionaziism is a core tenet of some Jews, the orthodox reject the state as being agents of God/Judaism, and there are other jews who either respect the boundaries of civilization, oppose Zionism entirely, or focus on communal support. Nevermind, demonic Ashkenazi pig fuckers including themselves as semitic people to deflect from criticism of Zionaziism.

Property rights are foundation of civilization. Religious supremacism overriding foundational civilization principles must be labelled demonism. If there is a sentimental/religious value to land, then go ahead and buy or pray for it. That is only option consistent with humanism and civilization. Otherwise, why can’t I murder my neighbour and take his house while calling it God’s command to me? God telling me to do it last night, is not any less valid than using latin instead of greek translations of people who told history 4000 years before their time.

Normalizing Zionist supremacism with every lie their controlled media/politicians tell us is a core problem.

There is a whole bunch of antisemitic and racist language in your response, and I’m not going to follow you down that rabbit hole.

The only possible imagination of anti-semitism when criticizing Zionist supremacist demonism is that you view all jews as demonic.








And bombing of a girls school is a war CRIME. There is a subtle difference.


I think we should just get it out of the way and call it The Iran Genocide. We all know that’s where this is going.


That BAAL statue….


Iran’s government needed toppling, but the ends do not justify the means. How you do something is just as important as what you’re doing, and this is being done in a horrible, unjustifiable way for deeply nefarious reasons, and the fact that some sort of good may come of it (though that remains yet to be seen) does not excuse the fact that most of it is really, really bad.

Iran’s government needed toppling

by whom?

… that’s exactly what I meant. Did you… not read the rest of the comment? What did you think I meant by “the ends do not justify the means?” The means include who did it, and how. I am saying they are not justified.

I don’t see who you think should do be the one to do the toppling, it’s a sincere question

The Iranian people, ultimately. Even if they will need outside help achieving it, I believe it still needs to be led by them, it needs to be both be conducted in a way and ultimately result in something the Iranian people consent to, and it needs to be done in good faith, not transactionally, and preferably with substantial international consensus. I don’t think good faith was even in the same timezone with what is happening here, and any possibility of consensus is weak and almost entirely post-hoc. I think genuine criticism is deserved for why it hasn’t happened before now, and even for why this kind of intervention became necessary in the first place, and maybe this is a better state than it has previously been in, but again, those ends still do not justify the means. The means have been wrong before this, and the new means are also wrong. None of it is justified, and none of it will justify the current situation or any of the places the current situation is going. I am not going to give it a “pass” just because it might end up in a better situation.

What actions by outisde helpers do you purpose?

Probably the same they do every time by working with the most violent groups so when shit goes down they end up with an even worse regime.


I am not an Iranian person, I don’t get to make proposals for them, nor do I want to. Go ask them. I won’t propose a right answer. I don’t know if there is one. But I can tell you with confidence that this answer is not right, and I am quite certain the Iranian people didn’t ask for what they’re equally certainly going to get.



I think that’s a fair take if you mean that the Iranian people lead the revolution and outside help is only permitted if it works directly under the command of the iranian people. The reason people are so on edge about this is because there is a lot of US state dept propaganda about “liberating” the country, trodding out some opposition group regardless of popularity that is willing to work with the US regime. See for example VZ and machado as the latest example.






There will be no good from this.. there’s no justification for killing thousands and thousands of innocent civilians.

This will be just like the Palestinian genocide.

There’s no plan other than bomb and kill.


With transparency and plans for transitioning out of violence after success/phases


No, countries should not go around invading other countries to effect regime change, regardless of how evil the leadership of that country may be. Change must necessarily come from the people, not foreign interests acting first and foremost for themselves. Time and time again toppling regimes has been the justification used to engage in wanton death and destruction, all the while being a pretense for something else. Just no. It needs to fucking stop.


What is this imperialist trash doing in an ostensibly “progressive” com?

Settle down. We need to have principles to live together in a global society. Moral relativism will get us nowhere and rampant individualism is a big reason why capitalism inevitably leads back to authoritarianism. Under capitalism the ends always justify the means.

A progressive world is one in which we have international law and a functioning UN that actually gives a shit about human rights, dignity, and freedoms. That should mean liberating those under oppressive regimes.

I hate nobody in this world more than Trump right now, but the one thing he gets right by accident is that relying on the US to do the dirty work of foreign intervention was never the right move.

The UN collectively should have liberated Iran years ago, and stepped in to keep Afghanistan out of Taliban hands as the US left, and more. These nations screw over their people constantly and they clearly couldn’t care less about their neighbors either - case in point Iran attacking its natural allies.

We should work together as a global order to uplift everyone.

With that said, there should be sanctions on the US for the shit they’re doing right now, and Israel too of course. For the same reasons. International law doesn’t mean anything if it’s just might is right.

The UN has no executive power. You will still rely on countries with all type of bad motivations that do not serve the iranian population

Who grants executive power? Because it should be able to act military upon resolution from its members if it cannot already. Economic contribution could determine voting weight, and veto rules need to stop single powers blocking resolutions. Veto should either be unanimous among the biggest powers or similarly a collective of the smaller/medium powers.

The goal is for there to be a democratic vote, preferably with proportional voting and protection of voters (so no intimidation). Then mechanisms to support and defend the new government whole it establishes its various mechanisms for decision making. All UN countries required to contribute proportionally according to their economic status.

I know this isn’t reality. But this or something like it should be.

So a one world government dominated by the West that countries are forced to submit themselves to.




We need to have principles to live together in a global society. Moral relativism will get us nowhere

I have principles, imperialist; I’m not the one advocating for the West to ignore international law and national sovereignty. “The West should impose it’s tyrannical will on the global South” is not a principle, it’s just chauvanism.

A progressive world is one in which we have international law and a functioning UN that actually gives a shit about human rights, dignity, and freedoms. That should mean liberating those under oppressive regimes.

“International law is when the West gets to ignore international law.”

The dirty work of foreign intervention

Damn, you sure dropped your pretense off caring about international law real fast.

The UN collectively should have liberated Iran years ago, and stepped in to keep Afghanistan out of Taliban hands as the US left, and more.

“The UN should have done what western chauvanists want it to!”

Ok, so again, you don’t give a shit about international law, you just want the West to enforce it’s will. Notice how you don’t suggest the UN should “liberate” (read: destroy) the actual worst abusers in the world, Israel and the US, just their enemies. The US occupying Afghanistan is fine, but the UN should only intervene if they leave, apparently.

These nations screw over their people constantly and they clearly couldn’t care less about their neighbors either.

Fuck you; your nations are infinitely worse.

case in point Iran attacking its natural allies.

“How dare Iran attack our military bases when we use them to launch an illegal war of aggression against them!”

Fuck off. Iran is following international law, you aren’t.

We should work together as a global order to uplift everyone.

Uplift yourself you bloodthirsty savages. This is just warmed over colonialist arguments from the 1800s.

With that said, there should be sanctions on the US for the shit they’re doing right now, and Israel too of course.

You mean the UN should be invading them to institute regime change right? Just as it should be doing for all the EU countries backing the most brutal genocide of the century? Oh no, of course not. You only believe the West has that right. Because you’re a chauvanist who doesn’t believe in international law.

International law doesn’t mean anything if it’s just might is right.

It also doesn’t mean anything when it’s just a way for white supremacist westerners like you to justify brutally dominating the rest of the world.

@TokenBoomer@lemmy.world l, seriously, why do we have to have this imperialist trash here?

Chill. Iran funds proxy militias. That’s not a violation of international law?

Everyone’s fucking ignoring international law in the name of whatever selfish ideology. If you’re going to assume my call for a principled approach to international foreign policy is just an excuse for the evils I want to solve… Well fuck mate. Let’s just forget about giving any kinds of shit about anyone but ourselves.

Is that the world you want to live in?

Chill

No, fuck you. People shouldn’t be “chill” in the face of mass slaughter.

Iran funds proxy militias. That’s not a violation of international law?

No. It isn’t. And you were literally advocating for the funding of militias in Iran. Again, you don’t give a shit about international law. You certainly aren’t advocating for invading and overthrowing every nation that funds foreign military groups.

Everyone’s fucking ignoring international law in the name of whatever selfish ideology.

No. You are, and you’re justifying it to yourself by assuming everyone else does it.

If you’re going to assume my call for a principled approach to international foreign policy

You’re not calling for a principled approach to international foreign policy. You’re calling for western domination of the global South.

Let’s just forget about giving any kinds of shit about anyone but ourselves. Is that the world you want to live in

Mate, that’s the world you’re advocating for, chauvanist prick. I’m advocating for a world where imperialist crackers are actually bound by the same international law as the rest of us.

You’re being so unnecessarily abrasive and insulting. You’re totally misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I’m saying. This is a waste of time.

I’m happy you’re passionate. I’m not your enemy. We both probably vote progressive. If you want to have a conversation take a step back and actually read what I wrote.

I’m asking for a coalition of likeminded nations to work together to topple oppressive regimes - call it the UN and include everyone. Ideally, do it non-militarily, but militarily if necessary.

That’s what Iran needs and wants. Not whatever the fuck Israel and the US are doing on their own. That’s wrong, and it’s going to end badly for everyone. On that I hope we can agree.








Not a war, but they keep using that word. Journalism is dead

Is there no war in Ukraine either? Russia is quite specific to talk their “special military operation” there anything but a war.


Not a war?

Then the US is at war with world, and then the word has no meaning.




Land taken and extended time period is war. Not splitting hairs here, but a few strikes to avoid discussing genocide or the Epstein files, does not a war make.

American internal politics are not the universal standard. The Iranian foreign minister has called it a war: https://www.wionews.com/world/-us-entered-war-on-behalf-of-israel-iran-slams-rubio-s-justification-of-pre-emptive-attack-1772524933052

I would assume he knows what he’s talking about.



This is unimaginably sick! Nothing indicates that this was just an accident. And it isn’t the only place. Gaza, the Venezuelan boats,.. The depravity is just unthinkable. Yet the rich entitled sadistic creeps like rump and hogshit joke and laugh about it. I hope they have a special place in hell to suffer each and every tragedy they’ve inflicted on the world. The earlier they reach there, the better.


This is a long, exhausting and difficult read. The absurdity, cruelty, stupidity, and savagery illustrated within is enough to make you need to lie down.

But there is also an inspiring clarity, repeated multiple times simply saying “This is wrong. This is murder. This isn’t complicated, really, and pretending it is, is nothing more than an indulgence to protect American ego.”

I’d like to read that sentiment more often, in more places.


Killing a religious leader is an extremely bad idea. I hope that Iran will eventually launch attacks inside the U.S. and launch drones against U.S. bases in San Diego.

Why San Diego? Why not DC?



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